Interview: Kashmir Leese on the origins of hip hop

Kashmir Leese. Photo: Hannah Waldram

Award-winning hip hop dance artist Kashmir Leese thinks streetdance classes are teaching the wrong thing, doesn’t like Diversity and wishes more people knew their krumping from their wacking.

Kashmir Leese took a starring roll in ‘Watch This Space‘ at 2008’s International Dance Festival Birmingham. As a member of 2FaCeD Dance Company, he was the body-popping dancer who drew some of the loudest cheers when he stepped up for his solos.

Since the last festival Kashmir has carried on refining his moves, picked up awards and strengthened his reputation.

The 20-year-old professional dancer knows he still has a lot to learn about hip hop culture (he keeps a growing list of influential people in hip hop at home), but he is adamant that, if streetdance is going to become more accessible and be taught in schools, it’s got to be done by the right people in the right way.

“When you say streetdance people think it’s routines. But streetdance is a collective term from streetdance styles. A lot of people don’t know what voguing and wacking is because they’ve never seen it and in the UK we don’t know where it originated from. One studio I went to had a hip hop class and a streetdance class – but they were teaching some sort of streetjazz, and people will think that is streetdance. I don’t mind, because people are dancing. But it is frustrating when people get it wrong because it went through a lot to get to where it is now.”

Born and bred in Birmingham, Leese remembers seeing his friend’s Bollywood films and being sucked in by the impressive movements in the martial arts scenes. He enjoyed drama at school and went to study performing arts, theatre and dance at Joseph Chamberlain Sixth Form College. A year later he self-taught himself hip hop using YouTube videos, practising the styles at Broken Silence in Newtown. He joined 2FaCeD Dance Company in 2007, touring with them around the UK and collaborating with contemporary choreographer Hofesh Schechter for International Dance Festival Birmingham ‘08.

Leese has gone on to form the hip hop collective, Smash Bro’z, who won awards at the UK Hip Hop Dance Championships and qualified to go to the World Hip Hop Dance Championships in Las Vegas in July - but they couldn’t raise enough money to go.

“We went to London and I entered the freestyle battle. I was beaten by another friend and got second place. We ranked third  in the adult group finals and qualified for Las Vegas, but we didn’t raise enough money in the end. There was a lot of support, but no people with money helping us. The only money we had was from busking on the streets everyday.”

Leese now teaches hip hop and funk styles at Birmingham’s DanceXchange, as well as running classes for the hip hop societies at Loughborough and Aston Universities. He sees the hip hop culture in the West Midlands as spread out across Bboys, graffiti artists, and MCs – but feels these groups remain fairly separate instead of joined as a collective, and more could be done to encourage the development of hip hop and its expression in dance in the region:

“There’s a few groups in Birmingham, but they are generic and don’t know their history and they’re not hungry. In London, everyone’s competing against each other and hungry to get better. Here, everyone just thinks they are the best, so they’re not going to improve.”

When Leese teaches young children he always starts by educating them about the history and fundamentals of hip hop and streetdance, as he feels they have both developed the wrong image. Hip hop, he says, is wrongly portrayed as having an association with gangs, shootings and swearing. Streetdance is often thought of as punchy dance routines, more akin to cheerleading, due to many dance schools misleadingly calling their lessons ’streetdance’ despite not teaching any of the streetdance styles, of which there are many:

“Streetdance involves six or seven styles – popping, locking, house, breaking, krumping, voguing and wacking.”

Many of these styles started off as social dances – for example krumping, one of the newest streetdance styles, started off as clowning and developed into a raw expression of emotions – a certain way of popping your chest. Each style has a specific origin and history with a pioneering dancer or creator, says Leese such as Don Campbell for locking. Voguing came from the gay community; not from Madonna, but from posing. Then the straight-guys’ pastiche of voguing developed into a new style – ‘punking’. What’s more, each style has a specific music it is danced to – for example, popping was done to funk music and electro beats. Leese believes children learning the dance styles should be educated with some of the culture and history of hip hop and streetdance, to make sure it stays true to its name.

“To be a streetdancer you need to know your streetdance styles. You can’t say you’re a maths teacher without first learning maths.

“Already people are getting it wrong but are still teaching it. So the question would be – who has the right to teach it?”

What’s more, he says that dance groups like Diversity, who came to prominence via Britain’s Got Talent, worsen the situation because they don’t include the range of styles in their dances, despite having talent.

“For me, Britain’s Got Talent is an issue. When Diversity won it, one of my friends said ‘The whole streetdance vision has just been ruined’ because Diversity are good, but they don’t do streetdance – popping, locking. To me it looks like cheerleading. To do streetdance you need to do the streetdance styles. Flawless, they did it, they did popping, locking. I don’t know why they didn’t win. Diversity have got talent and the entertainment factor but technically Flawless were better. ”

“A collaboration of styles is what hip hop culture is about. From contemporary to breaking. Some people say they do merge styles but they don’t do it the the right way. They do contemporary for four eights and locking for two eights. They need to merge it so it doesn’t lose its originality and its culture, but looks good and you can see what it is.”

So what does the future hold for Kashmir Leese?

He’s working with West Midlands Youth Dance Strategy Manager Toby Norman-Wright on a solo performance called L’Après-midi d’un Faune, to be shown next year. He’s also working on a group piece with the Smash Bro’z. He expresses a desire to focus on his own creative work and take a step back from teaching. He also hopes that Smash Bro’z – dejected after being unable to go to Las Vegas – will re-group and continue to create new dances as well as performing at San Fransisco hip hop festival.

Your Comments

  1. at 20 years old and with no real training hip hop and its history (like many) thats a big statement to make. 99% of people who move into urban dance admittedly do it because they have seen something (usually music videos) that have inspired them. Kash, something inspired you to start and something else further made you want to understand its history – this is admirable, but please DO NOT insult others by saying what they are doing isnt good enough or not correct. I agree that there are so many schools around who advertise their “Hip Hop” Classes and they really do not teach hip hop, but they are also not advertising that they will teach you the history and everything associated. BBoys, sadly, have a certain arrogance about what they do and really are quite obnoxious when viewing other dance groups/crews whom they can’t appreciate because they are NOT doing fundamentals…KASH for every young person you see “doing it wrong” might just find the right way with time, or, they might just carry on enjoying what they are doing..who are you to critisize that?

    said intheknow at 11:20 am on October 21, 2009

  2. Kashmir, after this statement I have lost respect for you. Just because what you do is different from others does not make it right. Street dance is about freedom of expression, who are you to say other are getting it wrong

    said Dance at 12:21 pm on October 22, 2009

  3. I think that it is shame because are doing Birmingham a disservice to talk about your fellow dance community as ‘not hungry’ is very disrespectful. Its views and attitudes like this which lead to the hip hop culture being associated with negativity. Instead of promoting the positivity all you seem to be doing is complaining about what you think is wrong. And you state that you want hip hop to grow, how will it if the teacher of it like yourself have such a destructive mind frame? You should be happy that groups like Diversity have taken the art form to a national level, people see that and want to get involved and which is why you are able to be booked to teach dance, you should be thankful to them. I think it is great that you have focus but you should not hate on others for their goals and visions.

    said Experience at 12:33 pm on October 22, 2009

  4. oh and Flawless didnt win Britains Got Talent because….the great British public, by large, are NOT dancers, street dancers or hip hoppers Kash, they watch Saturday night TV to be wowed, amused, entertained. Flawless ARE better dancers than Diversity (hands down, no argument) BUT the public don’t know what a good locker or a sick popper looks like, the public do however know what AMAZING looks like! And Diversity did have the wow factor. I admired Flawless for NOT changing what they do to win people over, and of course alot of “real” dancers were annoyed, but lets face it, the dance community KNOW this too. BGT is NOT a dance competition it is a talent show. And as Experience stated YOU KASH get paid to teach dance, you should be grateful that you are able to as without Diversity winning BGT street dance might not be as cool as it has now become! You do your thing and let everyone else do theirs, but stop the disrespect and arrogance towards others who have yet to learn histories and traditions etc.

    said intheknow at 4:09 pm on October 22, 2009

  5. why did this interview go online? are you trying to promote your local artists or bring them down?….
    Birmingham do have some hungry experienced Hip Hop heads… somebody with experience needed to read this first… but i guess “you live and learn….”

    said slick at 5:54 pm on October 22, 2009

  6. 1. Let me ask, at what age is it appropriate to make statements then? Does 30 make it more decent to make a statement than 20 if the knowledge behind the age is exactly the same?

    2. The history of all dance styles should be learned. Ballerinas get it drilled into their heads from when they start as 4 year olds…contemporary dancers know all about where their techniques came from like Graham and Cunningham etc…so why should hip hop be any different? It is an integral part of the formation of the dance. WIthout the history, there is no dance. Any good contemporary school does not NEED to advertise that it will teach the history, it goes along without saying that it must be mentioned and taught.

    3. I do not believe Kash is talking about getting things right or wrong but there can be confusion when u start labelling styles.

    4. I agree that in all of us there was a starting inspiration to begin our love for dance, but if we want to take it further, surely we must get to know all aspects of the dance? Let people continue doing what they want to do…but if u want to progress, surely you need to be hungry for more? And i believe that what Kash is saying is that yes be hungry for more, but learn why the dance is danced like how it is.

    said NRF at 3:01 pm on October 24, 2009

  7. Very good points NRF,but I think Kash is known for being arrogant and disrespectful to dancers who are not on his “level”. Don’t get me wrong, he is not alone! I know quite a few dancers particularly bboys who won’t give the average “street” dancer the time of day, also stating “they don’t know what they are doing, they dont understand the history” which is very unfair.

    Some dancers, KNOW the history, some dancers HAVE studied techniques and fundamentals, just because what they produce during dance isn’t correct in someone elses view is a very cocky and arrogant attitude to have.

    said dancer at 5:27 pm on October 24, 2009

  8. i understand why people would take this interview personally.. in that they feel offence towards certain statements that have been made..
    but i know kash.. and i KNOW what he’s about. I know what message he wants to portray. i know his passion for dance and his thirst for success and i know how committed he is to sharing his knowledge and talent.. to say he is arrogant and disrespectful to dancers not on his ‘level’?? that comment is completely irrelevant and unnecessary to make.
    i know its important to allow people to grow with their dancing abilities and yes have fun, express yourself.. but kash is trying to make a very important point here and i feel that peoples personal views should not be said with anger but through debate on the issue involved..

    said emma turner at 1:53 pm on October 25, 2009

  9. Oh and i might as well put my name down in case any other people want to take things out of context and make issues personal.

    It’s Natasha Fons.

    Also consider, that interview wasn’t written quote for quote what Kash said…there’s a lot of artistic licence involved on the writer’s part…

    said NRF at 8:07 pm on October 25, 2009

  10. These comments are amusing. I think some people are taking this personally, because they know in themselves that what they’re doing isn’t technically correct. If this isn’t the case, then obviously it doesn’t apply to you. First rule of the media, don’t believe everything you read. People are getting caught up about what some reporter has written, rather than the important issues that wern’t mentioned on this website. Hip-hop is hip-hop, as well as a culture, it’s also a movement
    that has to go in some kind of direction. It is true in Birmingham there are ppp who aren’t as hungry as others, but then again there are others that are. It’s jut survival of the fittest. Fair enough, more ppl are dancing, I love watching all kinds of dance. But, hip-hop dance is an umbrella term for many other HIP HOP styles. So it must be respected. The reason why many breakers may feel offended by most street groups is because they may not necessarily like the direction that this movement is going in. Bboying is one of the pillars of hip hop, so for that to be replaced by booty shakin girls, cars and money, in mainstream “hip hop” music videos, it’s subverted the concept totally. Hip hop dance incorporates bboying, popping, locking, krumping, house, waacking, punking and voguing. If yout not using any of these styles, then please don’t call what your doing hip-hop. Lack of education to styles is no excuse, how will you grow as a dancer or even a person if you don’t go away and do your homework. The term Streetdance came from doing these styles In the street. In the projects of New York, ppl never had access to studios or handouts at all, now we are lucky to have places that do offer classes, but unfortunately a lot of teachers lack knowledge of the history and the purpose of the particular dance style. Movement is one thing, but when there’s no reason behind that movement, then it’s meaningless. Popping came from a dance move called the jerk, locking came from a failed attempt of doing the funky chicken, bboying never used to be a dance where ppl went on the floor until the N….. Twins felt the need to go down on the floor. It’s common sense, how are people going to know where to take this style of dance or have any clue where it’s going, without knowing where it came from. . It’s like people not knowing their roots or family heritage. Everything has it’s place. We have he Internet so look up these facts! Now I’m not going to come on here and call out people online, cos that’s just sad and pathetic. I have used my real name because I want people to understand where I’m coming from on this. If anyone would like to debate about this some more then you can catch me at the yardbird on the weekends. Kashmir isn’t arrogant, he’s just very honest. How will the general public know anything about real hip hop, if most uk dancers don’t show them? All they’re goin to go by is what they see on tv, because they want to experience a quick buzz by seeing a flip or well timed sound effects to group routines. There are people in the uk that are going about this in the right way, but there are a lot more that aren’t. Hip hop dance is a recent dance style – nowhere near as old as ballet, so we need a solid foundation for it to be able to grow and flourish for many years to come. So train hard, stay hungry, research and get involved with the scene, network and meet new ppl both in and out of your community. Hip Hop is about peace, love and unity.

    said Aundre Brown at 9:47 pm on October 25, 2009

  11. I think some people are missing the point in this.

    Learn the basics, and then be creative under the umbrella of Hip Hop if you are GOING TO DANCE Hip Hop.

    A little background about me. I’m not a dancer, yet. I never trained before in my younger years. My favourite things to do involved the computer and lego. But, I AM of the creative types of people so, I respect a lot of forms of expression. I started coming to Kash’s classes just to hang out and make friends. Honestly i thought it was all a joke but when I really got to know this type of dance and got to know the people who’s lives are based around it. It opened my eyes a lot more. To make this short, after a year of on and off coming to these classes I decided to take this seriously and train harder for it. For what? Freedom of expression but, obviously I have to learn the basics of the basics first.

    How can you make a pizza when you don’t know what ingredients go into it or what methods you use to make it? Yah, you can get microwavable pizzas now but, would you call that the original Italian style pizza where it all originated from. Does that match up? You tell me.

    said nkarinc at 10:25 pm on October 25, 2009

  12. Yo!

    Ok, ive read everything everyone has said and im not going to repeat the things Aundre, Natasha, Emma, Natalie and various others have said. But what i am going to say is why you (intheknow) gotta come up on here and start dissing us Bboys for!? by saying:

    “BBoys, sadly, have a certain arrogance about what they do and really are quite obnoxious when viewing other dance groups/crews whom they can’t appreciate because they are NOT doing fundamentals”

    I dont know what part of the Bboying world your connected with but that is %100 incorrect, why ? because we are just as humble as any other locker, popper, hip hop/street dancer. Ive seen other hip hop dancers diss on other hip hop dancers by doing the exact same thing u seem to think about Bboys. Its not Bboys as a whole its just people YOU meet!

    And secondly “You should be happy that groups like Diversity have taken the art form to a national level, people see that and want to get involved and which is why you are able to be booked to teach dance, you should be thankful to them” true ppl see it and want to get involved but saying they have taken the ART FORM to another level is an over statement (moving your arms and not your core is not an art form) also im pretty sure Kash and other street dancers have been gettin paid work long before BGT even started, so diversity played no role in them getting more lol.

    Jahmai ‘Dizzy’ Jones
    MDK (MURDA, DEATH, KILL)
    Smash Bro’z

    said Jahmai 'Dizzy' Jones at 11:27 pm on October 25, 2009

  13. First of all what makes a Bboy arrogant or obnoxious? The fact that we know our history and how over the years the media has changed the image of Hip Hop? Yes you might see a flip or a scene from a music video that inspired you to start dancing, thats how it starts off for a lot of people, but once you have been dancing for a while you should know the history/origins of the dance you are dancing and where it is headed. Dancing without this information is as Aundre said it: ”Not knowing their roots or family heritage.”I have found the comments to be entertaining to some extent, but they are also very ignorant, especially those from dancers. Saying that Diversity have made Streetdance cooler than it was before is just a foolish statement to make. As well as saying Bboys don’t give average ’streetdancers’ the time of day is another wrong assumption. If what you do is good, original and fresh then you will be recognised and given the time of day. If you aren’t, then re-think your approach to the dance yes?People (and that goes for a lot of Hip Hop dancers) don’t know that the culture, let alone the dance, wouldn’t be where it is today if it weren’t for the likes of Kool Herc, Afrika Bambaataa or James Brown and many others. As a real hip hop dancer this is something that you simply must know, otherwise you won’t grow as a Hip Hopper.Do remember that the article has been clipped to the reporter’s needs, so don’t believe what is written there is all that Kash believes and told in the story. There is so much more to be said and it might have been said but left out. Again another error is assuming the fact he is arrogant from this article alone, he is simply being honest and that may be a lot to handle for a lot of dancers from the West Midlands, especially those who think he is reffering to.To finish, Hip Hop is about ‘Peace, Unity, Love and having Fun’ and to write such hateful comments is what contributes to Hip Hop’s ever so growing negative image, yeah so stay positive! Peace

    said Adil Khan at 11:48 pm on October 25, 2009

  14. The last few comments are correct when you talk about learn the basic and building on a foundation. But you don’t have to put others down (which is what Kash is doing) in order to raise the standards. – ITS NOT WHAT YOU DO ITS HOW YOU DO IT

    said Experience at 10:00 am on October 26, 2009

  15. ladies and gentlemen, bboys and bgirls, guys and gals. In essence what the “Dancegeek” refers to is true although some are in denial or live lives of ignorance. We dance today as the produce of the past and hence we should appreciate the sacrifices and discoveries of our teachers and pioneers in order to understand that to a professional or a beginner, thinngs did not occur out of thin air.

    Why Divesity and Flawless are recieving free advertising within this drama is beyond me when other undiscovered artists exist within the coastlines of the UK.

    Let us not forget the term United Kingdom, although it is referring to a once great empire of the british, let it stand now for all dancers united in a kingdom of HipHop, where we all learn and teach each other in order to increase our knowledge so as to become pioneers ourselves someday. Those that dance for fun, or even exercise, lets not knock them but actually embrace them for we do not know what the future holds for them.

    Finally, Enough slandering of Kash, Diversity and BBoy’s. Although I feel all parties deserve an apology, let us agree that if you can’t say anything positive, to put it quite bluntly, KEEP YOUR GOB SHUT!

    As a fellow BBoy, let me reassure you I am the happiest ever in my life not only due to the freedom of expression via breaking and HipHop but also because of the amazing people I have met on my journey. Arrogance does exist in some but the true representatives of the each style shall always remain humble and modest until a battle commences which is how BBoying is. Outside the circle i love my people, inside I will do my best to open a can of whoop ass. But why make it personal?

    Finally, comments left by “intheknow” “dance” “experience” and “slick” please keep your negativity to yourself and since politics belongs in the House of Commons and not in our world,, lets unite in one studio and train to obtain better health, attitudes, unity and share our goal.

    Gracias, Grazie, Merci, Origato and Thanks.

    said Ben Dover at 3:08 pm on October 26, 2009

  16. I think the comments are borne out of a passion for what he does, nothing wrong with that, people shouldnt take things personally, thats his opinion, which in my opinion is right in many respects. Interesting debate tho.

    said dee at 11:39 am on October 27, 2009

  17. Thanks for all the comments, we need to close them for a while, but if you want to carry on discussing the piece then you can do over at the West Midlands Dance website.

    http://westmidlandsdance.com/2009/10/21/interview-kashmir-leese-on-the-origins-of-hip-hop/

    said Chris Unitt at 10:16 am on November 2, 2009